「嫌いなはずなのに、わりと好き」Jリーグが引き分け廃止（同点→PK）を試す移行シーズンに海外の反応

英語圏最大の電子掲示板Redditの「r/soccer (サッカー板)」

reddit.com/r/soccer

lewiitom
It’s worth pointing out that this rule is only for the special half-year tournament that they’re running, and it’ll go back to normal when the actual J-League starts in August
（一応言っとくと、これは“半年だけの特別大会”のルールで、本番のJリーグが8月に始まったら通常ルールに戻るやつだよ）

Ok-Guide-3684
Get out of here with your context. This is for over reactions only!
（文脈持ち込むなよ。ここは過剰反応だけする場所だろ！）

wallis2011
Read the article? In this day and age? No THANKS ❌
（記事を読む？この時代に？結構です❌）

LordVelaryon
It literally says so both in the article and on OP’s summary.
（それ、記事にもOPの要約にもそのまま書いてあるじゃん）

lewiitom
Yeah I was just highlighting it because I assumed that most people here wouldn’t bother reading past the headline
（うん、ここだと大半が見出し以上読まないだろうなって思って、あえて強調した）

Zlevi04
Thanks good sir
（ありがとよ、紳士）

PoliceAlarm
Good thing to do. Namaste.
（良い行いだ。ナマステ。）

throwawaycatallus
I didn’t even bother reading the comment.
（そのコメントすら読んでない）

kriuksereal
Fuck off idiot neanderthal learn to read you dipshit daft git
（失せろ、原始人。読めるようになってから来い、このクソ間抜け）

Korece
Would be interesting if they do implement regularly it if it improves the game. Curious how this might change tactics and if it’ll improve penalty taking skills.
（もし定着したら面白そう。戦術がどう変わるか、PKの練習レベルが上がるかも気になる）

Top4Four
The tournament itself will be a great testing ground. Like when they had those golden goal and silver goal experiments in International tourneys that ended up being scrapped.
If it improves the game, it may later end up being used more. Then again, if more teams play for draws and spend days and days of training on penalty shootouts, then maybe it’s not a good thing. Only one way to find out, test it out and see if it adds excitement or not.
（大会自体が良い実験場だね。昔の国際大会でゴールデンゴール／シルバーゴールを試して結局やめた、みたいに。面白くなれば広がるかもしれない。逆に“引き分け狙い→PK練習漬け”が増えるなら微妙。結局、やってみて面白くなるか確かめるしかない）

Chesney1995
They do this in the EFL Trophy group stages already.
（EFLトロフィーのグループステージはもうこれやってるよ）

879190747
Like how we would go back to 3 subs.
（「3人交代に戻る」みたいな話だな）

grip0matic
Bordalás salivating with this news…
With his terrorball and current squad he would be aiming for european football.
（ボルダラス、これ聞いてヨダレ垂らしてそう…。あのテロサッカーと今の戦力なら欧州狙えるわ）

charlietrick2512
If we sacked Glasner now we could get Bordelas (61) into Europe
（今グラスナー切れば、ボルダラス（61）で欧州行ける）

MajimaKun
He took Getafe into Europe already, you should see what the Ajax games were like
（ゲタフェを欧州に連れてった実績あるぞ。アヤックス戦の地獄っぷり見てみ？）

Zlevi04
Peak fiction
（創作の極み）

MajimaKun
Are you saying it didn’t happen? 19/20 Europa League
（起きてないって言うの？19/20のELだぞ）

grip0matic
Those games are still PTSD for the Ajax fans. As a neutral it was an amazing display of “fuck you, I won’t play what you tell me” with Rage Against the Machine as OST.
（あの試合はいまだにアヤックスファンのPTSD。第三者目線だと「知るか、俺は俺のやり方でやる」って開き直りの芸術で、BGMはRage Against the Machineが似合う）

JJ-Bittenbinder
Would annoy me in the prem if bottom of the table teams could play for a 0-0 draw and then go for the win in penalties
（プレミアで、下位が0-0狙い→PKで勝ちに行く、みたいになったら普通に嫌だな）

SizzlingHotDeluxe
Yeah, this promotes low blocks and defensive football even more in general since you can park the bus for 2/3 points. Not a fan of the idea.
（うん、2/3点を狙って“バス停め”が加速する。守備的サッカー促進になるから、俺は好きじゃない）

punishGoalhanging
J-league should do this allocation instead:
3 points for win
1.25 point for draw and penalty shootout win
1.00 point for draw and penalty shootout loss
0 point for loss
—
J-league fans get to see the penalty shootout in case of a draw. Same excitement with 0.25 point gain vs 1 point gain. No teams would play for a draw since it would take on average 8 draws to get an extra 1 point (winning 4 out of 8 draws penalty shootout)
（配点はこうした方がいい：
勝ち3点
引き分け＋PK勝ち1.25点
引き分け＋PK負け1.00点
負け0点
――
引き分けでもPKが見られて盛り上がるし、上乗せ0.25なら引き分け狙いが得になりにくい。平均すると“引き分け8回でようやく+1点”だからね）

advancedmatt
Something like this, yeah. The rules ought to have the effect of making it clear that a draw + shootout win is worth far less than winning in 90 minutes.
（そうそう。90分勝ちに比べて「引き分け＋PK勝ち」はかなり価値が低い、って分かる配点にすべき）

garysax
Will only accept this in the MLS’s old shootout format.
（やるならMLSの昔のシュートアウト方式しか認めない）

Ventenebris
Banger shootouts
（あれは名勝負製造機のシュートアウトだった）

Cmoore4099
I still stand by that being a cool idea. Eliminates the dumb ass stutter step bullshit.
（あれは今でも良いアイデアだと思う。クソみたいな“止まりながら蹴る”の駆け引きが消えるし）

enghuei1119
Correction, this is not J-League’s 100th anniversary. The league in its current form started in the early 90’s.
（訂正。Jリーグの100周年じゃない。今の形のリーグは90年代初頭に始まった）

ProStriker92
This. The “100 Year Vision” comes from the J.League plan to have 100 profesional teams for 2093.
（それな。「100年構想」って、2093年までにプロクラブ100を目指す計画のこと）

stoneapplefruit
I should hate it, but I kind of love it.
（嫌いなはずなのに、わりと好きだわこれ）

punishGoalhanging
It is all right to experiment but I think this point allocation is better
3 points for win
1.25 point for draw and penalty shootout win
1.00 point for draw and penalty shootout loss
0 point for loss
—
Rewarding only 0.25 point extra (instead of a whole point) prevent more teams playing for a draw because to gain 1 extra point, on average it takes 8 draws. (winning 4 penalty shootout out of 8 penalty shootout)
Fans get to watch the penalty shootout tiebreaker, which is pretty exciting. The organizers goal is met
“The organizers emphasize that this innovation is primarily intended to eliminate draws, which historically detracted from the excitement of the league, and to offer fans more intense and spectacular matches.”
（実験はアリだけど、この配点が良いと思う。上乗せを0.25にしておけば“引き分け狙い”が増えにくい。PKも見られて盛り上がるし、主催者の狙いも満たせる）

Shreddonia
Don’t actually hate it, but I think I’d ditch the shootout part and bring back the lost and forsaken art of Golden Goal.
（別に嫌いじゃないけど、PKは捨てて“失われた芸術＝ゴールデンゴール”を復活させたい）

Morganelefay
Average Serie A match time goes from 90 to 900 minutes.
（セリエAの平均試合時間が90分から900分になる未来が見える）

NairbZaid10
Boring af. Only makes teams scared of taking any risks
（クソつまらん。リスク取れなくなるだけ）

fireowlzol
Do the old mls run from midfield and shoot lol
（昔のMLSみたいに、センターラインから走って撃つ方式にしようぜw）

GaussianTaravangian
And make it like the nhl: have it be 7 on 7 or something like that
（NHLみたいに、7対7とかにしちゃえ）

ilypsus
Even better, unlimited time with no breaks but each 10 minutes 1 player is removed from the field of play for each team. But it’s random number generator to select the players.
（もっと良い案：時間無制限・休憩なしで、10分ごとに両チームからランダムに1人ずつ退場。乱数で選ぶ）

rwsen22
To the people saying it’s a good idea, does this incentivise draws pretty significantly, and therefore conservative football?
If there are still 3 points for a win, then a draw is worth 1.5 points on average, rather than the 1 it is currently.
（良いって言ってる人へ。これ、引き分けをかなり後押しして、結果的に保守的サッカーを増やさない？勝ちが3点のままなら、引き分けの期待値が今の1点から平均1.5点に上がるわけで）

TheConundrum98
If I’m not wrong the Yugoslavian league had this model for a few years
（確かユーゴのリーグが、数年これやってたはず）

420SwaggyZebra
Unless it’s the 1990’s MLS shootout system I don’t want it.
（90年代MLS式じゃないなら要らない）

ProStriker92
May sound innovative, but in reality it was applied (under some variations) in the 90’s.
For example in some seasons after the draw the match went inmediately through PK while in other seasons an ET with golden goal was used before the PK.
The scoring system was also modified: 3 points for a win in the 90′ minutes, 2 points for ET/PK victory, 1 point after being defeated in ET/PK and 0 points for losing in in the 90′ minutes. Not much different compared with USA during the same years.
Keep in mind that also leaded to some curious situations like in 1999. The Urawa Red Diamonds needed to win over Sanfrecce Hiroshima in the 90 minutes for avoiding relegation to J2. The Reds won but on ET meaning that they only got 2 points and being relegated beacuse goal differential. This also lead to the saddest goal ever scored in J.League history.
If you play those J.League Winning Eleven games from PS1 and early PS2, you will found those rules.
（革新的に聞こえるけど、実は90年代に（形を変えつつ）やってた。引き分け即PKの年もあれば、ゴールデンゴール延長→PKの年もあった。配点も90分勝ち3、延長/PK勝ち2、延長/PK負け1、90分負け0…で、当時のアメリカと大差ない。で、1999年には変な事件も起きた。浦和はJ2降格回避に“90分勝ち”が必要だったのに、延長で勝って2点止まり→得失点差で降格、みたいな。ウイイレ（PS1〜PS2初期）のJリーグモードやってたなら、あのルール出てくるはず）

PepeGodzilla
Was that with Guido Buchwald? I remember he played there some time late 90s.
（それってブッフバルトいた頃？90年代後半にいた記憶ある）

ProStriker92
He was in Urawa from 1994 to 1997 as player (in 1999 he was playing with Karlsruher).
But Guido returned to the Reds years later as manager, winning the J1 in 2006.
（選手としては浦和に94〜97年（99年はカールスルーエ）。ただ後年に監督として戻って、2006年にJ1優勝してる）

ThemosttrustedFries
I think it’s a good idea for most Cup tournaments but there is no reason to remove draws in the League.
（カップ戦なら良いけど、リーグ戦で引き分け消す理由はないと思う）

GaussianTaravangian
This would be interesting, especially if they did the same point scoring as the women’s hockey league:
3-win
2-shootout win
1-shootout loss
0-loss
I have no idea what that would do to a league (although this is just for their tournament thing).
（面白そう。女子ホッケーリーグみたいに、勝ち3／シュートアウト勝ち2／シュートアウト負け1／負け0にするならなおさら。リーグ全体がどうなるかは分からんけど（まあ今回は大会限定だが））

nachocar91
Argentina tried this in the 1988-89 tournament. Not a good experience, as fans many times did not want to stay to watch the penalties (except for derbies), and some shootouts kept going for too long (the most extreme case being Argentinos 2 (20)-(19) 2 Racing in which 44 PKs were taken)
（アルゼンチンは88-89でやったけど、良い体験じゃなかった。ダービー以外はPKまで残らない客も多いし、PKが長引きすぎることもある（最悪は44本蹴った試合とか））

Such-Environment-344
I made a blog about proposing the points system in American soccer, which MLS Next Pro and Leagues Cup are doing right now.
This isn’t just about eliminating draws; it’s about making every moment matter. The proposed 4-Tier Point System will reward teams for winning in regulation, for succeeding under pressure, and even for holding their ground through 90 minutes.
Proposal: Revolutionizing American Soccer with the “Decision Point” Hybrid Points System
（MLS Next Proやリーグスカップが今やってる方式について、配点制度の提案ブログを書いた。これは引き分けを消すだけじゃなく、“90分の一瞬一瞬に価値を持たせる”って話だ）

wubrotherno1
J-League has been around since 1992. They have a 100 year scheme to make football better in Japan. That was how I understood it at least.
（Jリーグは1992年から。日本のサッカーを良くする“100年構想”があって、それの話だと理解してる）

Bowmanstan
This is what the NHL (hockey league in the US and Canada) has been doing for the last twenty years. Its not a good system, because now a draw is worth half a win on average.
（NHLが20年やってるやつだ。良い制度じゃない。引き分けが平均で“勝ちの半分”みたいな価値になるから）

bellerinho
The problem with how the NHL does it is that it creates an extra point from nowhere. We call it the loser point. A win is worth 2 points, a regulation loss is worth 0. But inexplicably an overtime or shootout loss is worth 1 point, and an overtime or shootout win is still worth 2
It basically creates these scenarios where some teams are getting to OT every other game and racking up all these stupid loser points that end up getting them into the playoffs over teams that actually have more wins than them
（NHL方式の問題は“どこからともなく点が生える”こと。いわゆるルーザーポイント。勝ち2、レギュレーション負け0なのに、延長/シュートアウト負けだけ1点、勝ちは相変わらず2点。結果として、やたらOTに持ち込むチームが“負け点”を貯めて、勝ち数が多いチームを差し置いてPOに入ったりする）

otter_pop_n_lock
Still can’t believe they haven’t changed this. And I hate that an NHL table looks like an Excel spreadsheet.
（まだ直してないの信じられん。あとNHLの順位表がExcelみたいなのも嫌い）

bellerinho
I think they will have to at some point, it’s ridiculous and pretty nonsensical. The easy solution is make the win 3 points and keep the OT win/loss like how it is now, so you aren’t generating magical points from nowhere
But of course nothing the NHL does is ever sensible so can’t imagine it will change anytime soon
（いつかは変えざるを得ないと思う。バカげてるし筋も悪い。簡単な解決策は“勝ちを3点”にして、OT勝ち/負けの扱いは今のままにすれば、謎の点が湧かない。ただNHLって何一つまともにやらないから、すぐ変わるとは思えないけど）

iwbwikia_
i like it
（好き）

HumansNeedNotApply1
Seems like a temporary gimmick to entice audiences for a glorified pre-season tournament?
（客寄せの一時的ギミック？要するに“格上げしたプレシーズン”でしょ？）

Morganelefay
That’s the cynic approach, but it’s a good moment to test out the format.
（それは皮肉屋の見方。でも試すには良いタイミングだよ）

zizou00
Less a pre-season tournament and more a transitional season. Japan is re-aligning their calendar to fit the August-May season as opposed to the annual season they had been running. This ensures teams will be able to play games and make some money, which is vitally important for the smaller teams in JLeague 2 and 3.
（プレシーズンっていうより移行シーズン。日本は通年開催から、8〜5月の欧州型カレンダーに合わせ直してる。だから“空白期間を作らない”ためにも試合して収益を確保する必要があって、特にJ2/J3の小規模クラブには死活問題）

ScousePenguin
Most definitely
（まさにそれ）

allangod
If i was to pointlessly implement a new rule like this id probably go with 2 points for a scoring draw and 1 for a 0-0. Or the harsher 0 points for a 0-0 draw and 1 for a scoring draw.
（こういうルール入れるなら、スコアレスは0点or1点、点の入る引き分けは2点…みたいにしたい。0-0は罰したい）

charlietrick2512
Wouldn’t you just get teams abusing it by agreeing to score an own goal each if it’s goalless in the last minute
（終盤0-0なら“お互いオウンゴール1点ずつ入れようぜ”って悪用されない？）

EasyModeActivist
I think Hockey does 3 points for a win, 2 for a shootout win and 1 for a draw. That should incentivise going for a win too.
（ホッケーは勝ち3、SO勝ち2、引き分け1…だった気がする。なら勝ちを狙う動機も残る）

alexmackd
A 0-0 draw both teams should get 0 points but a scoring draw gets both teams 1 point each. Elimates teams doing a lowblock as they won’t be rewarded for it.
（0-0は両方0点、点が入った引き分けは両方1点。ロー ブロックの“得”を消せる）

Fassmacher
I always loved this idea
（その案ずっと好き）

swannyhypno
If you draw after 90 neither team deserves a chance at an extra point, just a gimmick
（90分で引き分けなら、追加点のチャンス自体いらない。ギミックでしかない）

FatFaceAbs
This concept is so American but it’ll only be until June so it’s not the worst idea.
（発想がアメリカすぎる。でも6月までなら、最悪ってほどでもない）

LieNervous1016
American concepts aren’t always a bad idea, to be fair. I think this and the golden goal are concepts that should be used more often imo
（公平に言うと、アメリカ発だからって悪いとは限らない。これはこれで、ゴールデンゴールも、もっと使っていいと思う）

FaithlessnessOk2121
I’ve always thought a draw should be 0 points.
（引き分けは0点でいい派だった）

iwbwikia_
hockey implemented this for the regular season and i enjoy it. i know this isn’t for the league but just to say it wasn’t so crazy for hockey in the end.
（ホッケーはレギュラーシーズンでこれやってるけど、俺は楽しめてる。今回はリーグじゃないのは分かるけど、結局ホッケーではそこまで狂気でもなかった）

Tausendsassa
This statistically emboldens teams to take less risks just defend and go for the two point draw.
Sounds fun but is actually a really bad idea.
（統計的には、リスク取らず守って“2点引き分け”を狙う方に寄る。楽しそうに見えて、実はかなり悪い案）

TheBatPencil
Seems more straightforward to instead only allocate a point each in the event of a score draw, not a 0-0 draw.
This just makes playing for a draw a more valuable strategy.
（0-0は点なし、スコア引き分けだけ1点…の方が素直じゃない？これは引き分け狙いを価値ある戦略にしちゃう）

XAMdG
Weird. But I’m all in favor of experiments. If it ends up being cool, good. If not, we can always return.
（変だけど、実験は賛成。面白ければ良いし、ダメなら戻せばいい）

Yellowfury0
I mean MLS did this when they first started, as I’m sure other leagues have attempted as well.
（MLSも初期にこれやってたし、他にも試したリーグあるでしょ）

anon377362
This is worded really weirdly and is also wrong. As stated later on, the loser does get 1 point, so saying ‘loser does not get any’ is wrong.
I think the writer confused themselves. They meant to write ‘the loser does not not get any’. But that would also be weird wording. Just bad writing all around.
（文章が変だし、しかも間違ってる。後半で“負けた方も1点”って書いてるのに、「負けは何も得ない」は誤り。書き手が混乱したんだろうけど、“does not not get any”にしても変だし、とにかく文章が雑）

93EXCivic
MLS Pro Next does this currently kinda.
3 points for a win
1 point for a draw.
Additional point for winning the penalty shootout
（MLS Next Proは今これに近い。勝ち3、引き分け1、PK勝ちで追加1点）

JapaneseCDBonusTrack
I’d rather get rid of the penalty lottery. Do what I did in football game training modes, take out a player from each team every 3 minutes or so, once it gets down to a few players it’s impossible not to score lol
（PKガチャは消したい。サッカーゲームの練習モードでやってたみたいに、3分ごとに両チームから1人ずつ減らしていけばいい。人数減ったら点入らない方が無理になるw）